meno- 第7部分

teachers　who　will　corrupt　Meno　（let　them　be；　if　you　please；　the



Sophists）；　I　only　ask　you　to　tell　him　who　there　is　in　this　great



city　who　will　teach　him　how　to　become　eminent　in　the　virtues　which　I



was　just；　now　describing。　He　is　the　friend　of　your　family；　and　you



will　oblige　him。



　　Any。　Why　do　you　not　tell　him　yourself？



　　Soc。　I　have　told　him　whom　I　supposed　to　be　the　teachers　of　these



things；　but　I　learn　from　you　that　I　am　utterly　at　fault；　and　I　dare



say　that　you　are　right。　And　now　I　wish　that　you；　on　your　part；　would



tell　me　to　whom　among　the　Athenians　he　should　go。　Whom　would　you　name？



　Any。　Why　single　out　individuals？　Any　Athenian　gentleman；　taken　at



random；　if　he　will　mind　him；　will　do　far　more；　good　to　him　than　the



Sophists。



　　Soc。　And　did　those　gentlemen　grow　of　themselves；　and　without



having　been　taught　by　any　one；　were　they　nevertheless　able　to　teach



others　that　which　they　had　never　learned　themselves？



　　Any。　I　imagine　that　they　learned　of　the　previous　generation　of



gentlemen。　Have　there　not　been　many　good　men　in　this　city？



　　Soc。　Yes；　certainly；　Anytus；　and　many　good　statesmen　also　there



always　have　been　and　there　are　still；　in　the　city　of　Athens。　But　the



question　is　whether　they　were　also　good　teachers　of　their　own



virtue；…not　whether　there　are；　or　have　been；　good　men　in　this　part



of　the　world；　but　whether　virtue　can　be　taught；　is　the　question



which　we　have　been　discussing。　Now；　do　we　mean　to　say　that　the　good



men　our　own　and　of　other　times　knew　how　to　impart　to　others　that



virtue　which　they　had　themselves；　or　is　virtue　a　thing　incapable　of



being　communicated　or　imparted　by　one　man　to　another？　That　is　the



question　which　I　and　Meno　have　been　arguing。　Look　at　the　matter　in



your　own　way：　Would　you　not　admit　that　Themistocles　was　a　good　man？



　　Any。　Certainly；　no　man　better。



　　Soc。　And　must　not　he　then　have　been　a　good　teacher；　if　any　man



ever　was　a　good　teacher；　of　his　own　virtue？



　　Any。　Yes　certainly；…if　he　wanted　to　be　so。



　　Soc。　But　would　he　not　have　wanted？　He　would；　at　any　rate；　have



desired　to　make　his　own　son　a　good　man　and　a　gentleman；　he　could　not



have　been　jealous　of　him；　or　have　intentionally　abstained　from



imparting　to　him　his　own　virtue。　Did　you　never　hear　that　he　made　his



son　Cleophantus　a　famous　horseman；　and　had　him　taught　to　stand　upright



on　horseback　and　hurl　a　javelin；　and　to　do　many　other　marvellous



things；　and　in　anything　which　could　be　learned　from　a　master　he　was



well　trained？　Have　you　not　heard　from　our　elders　of　him？



　　Any。　I　have。



　　Soc。　Then　no　one　could　say　that　his　son　showed　any　want　of　capacity？



　　Any。　Very　likely　not。



　　Soc。　But　did　any　one；　old　or　young；　ever　say　in　your　hearing　that



Cleophantus；　son　of　Themistocles；　was　a　wise　or　good　man；　as　his



father　was？



　　Any。　I　have　certainly　never　heard　any　one　say　so。



　　Soc。　And　if　virtue　could　have　been　taught；　would　his　father



Themistocles　have　sought　to　train　him　in　these　minor



accomplishments；　and　allowed　him　who；　as　you　must　remember；　was　his



own　son；　to　be　no　better　than　his　neighbours　in　those　qualities　in



which　he　himself　excelled？



　　Any。　Indeed；　indeed；　I　think　not。



　　Soc。　Here　was　a　teacher　of　virtue　whom　you　admit　to　be　among　the



best　men　of　the　past。　Let　us　take　another；…Aristides；　the　son　of



Lysimachus：　would　you　not　acknowledge　that　he　was　a　good　man？



　　Any。　To　be　sure　I　should。



　　Soc。　And　did　not　he　train　his　son　Lysimachus　better　than　any　other



Athenian　in　all　that　could　be　done　for　him　by　the　help　of　masters？　But



what　has　been　the　result？　Is　he　a　bit　better　than　any　other　mortal？　He



is　an　acquaintance　of　yours；　and　you　see　what　he　is　like。　There　is



Pericles；　again；　magnificent　in　his　wisdom；　and　he；　as　you　are



aware；　had　two　sons；　Paralus　and　Xanthippus。



　　Any。　I　know。



　　Soc。　And　you　know；　also；　that　he　taught　them　to　be　unrivalled



horsemen；　and　had　them　trained　in　music　and　gymnastics　and　all　sorts



of　arts…in　these　respects　they　were　on　a　level　with　the　best…and　had



he　no　wish　to　make　good　men　of　them？　Nay；　he　must　have　wished　it。



But　virtue；　as　I　suspect；　could　not　be　taught。　And　that　you　may　not



suppose　the　incompetent　teachers　to　be　only　the　meaner　sort　of



Athenians　and　few　in　number；　remember　again　that　Thucydides　had　two



sons；　Melesias　and　Stephanus；　whom；　besides　giving　them　a　good



education　in　other　things；　he　trained　in　wrestling；　and　they　were



the　best　wrestlers　in　Athens：　one　of　them　he　committed　to　the　care



of　Xanthias；　and　the　other　of　Eudorus；　who　had　the　reputation　of　being



the　most　celebrated　wrestlers　of　that　day。　Do　you　remember　them？



　　Any。　I　have　heard　of　them。



　　Soc。　Now；　can　there　be　a　doubt　that　Thucydides；　whose　children



were　taught　things　for　which　he　had　to　spend　money；　would　have



taught　them　to　be　good　men；　which　would　have　cost　him　nothing；　if



virtue　could　have　been　taught？　Will　you　reply　that　he　was　a　mean



man；　and　had　not　many　friends　among　the　Athenians　and　allies？　Nay；　but



he　was　of　a　great　family；　and　a　man　of　influence　at　Athens　and　in



all　Hellas；　and；　if　virtue　could　have　been　taught；　he　would　have　found



out　some　Athenian　or　foreigner　who　would　have　made　good　men　of　his



sons；　if　he　could　not　himself　spare　the　time　from　cares　of　state。　Once



more；　I　suspect；　friend　Anytus；　that　virtue　is　not　a　thing　which　can



be　taught？



　　Any。　Socrates；　I　think　that　you　are　too　ready　to　speak　evil　of



men：　and；　if　you　will　take　my　advice；　I　would　recommend　you　to　be



careful。　Perhaps　there　is　no　city　in　which　it　is　not　easier　to　do



men　harm　than　to　do　them　good；　and　this　is　certainly　the　case　at



Athens；　as　I　believe　that　you　know。



　　Soc。　O　Meno；　think　that　Anytus　is　in　a　rage。　And　he　may　well　be　in　a



rage；　for　he　thinks；　in　the　first　place；　that　I　am　defaming　these



gentlemen；　and　in　the　second　place；　he　is　of　opinion　that　he　is　one　of



them　himself。　But　some　day　he　will　know　what　is　the　meaning　of



defamation；　and　if　he　ever　does；　he　will　forgive　me。　Meanwhile　I



will　return　to　you；　Meno；　for　I　suppose　that　there　are　gentlemen　in



your　region　too？



　　Men。　Certainly　there　are。



　　Soc。　And　are　they　willing　to　teach　the　young？　and　do　they　profess　to



be　teachers？　and　do　they　agree　that　virtue　is　taught？



　　Men。　No　indeed；　Socrates；　they　are　anything　but　agreed；　you　may　hear



them　saying　at　one　time　that　virtue　can　be　taught；　and　then　again



the　reverse。



　　Soc。　Can　we　call　those　teachers　who　do　not　acknowledge　the



possibility　of　their　own　vocation？



　　Men。　I　think　not；　Socrates。



　　Soc。　And　what　do　you　think　of　these　Sophists；　who　are　the　only



professors？　Do　they　seem　to　you　to　be　teachers　of　virtue？



　　Men。　I　often　wonder；　Socrates；　that　Gorgias　is　never　heard　promising



to　teach　virtue：　and　when　he　hears　others　promising　he　only　laughs



at　them；　but　he　thinks　that　men　should　be　taught　to　speak。



　　Soc。　Then　do　you　not　think　that　the　Sophists　are　teachers？



　　Men。　I　cannot　tell　you；　Socrates；　like　the　rest　of　the　world；　I　am



in　doubt；　and　sometimes　I　think　that　they　are　teachers　and　sometimes



not。



　　Soc。　And　are　you　aware　that　not　you　only　and　other　politicians



have　doubts　whether　virtue　can　be　taught　or　not；　but　that　Theognis　the



poet　says　the　very　same　thing？



　　Men。　Where　does　he　say　so？



　　Soc。　In　these　elegiac　verses：







　　Eat　and　drink　and　sit　with　the　mighty；　and　make　yourself　agreeable



to　them；　for　from　the　good　you　will　learn　what　is　good；　but　if　you　mix



with　the　bad　you　will　lose　the　intelligence　which　you　already　have。







Do　you　observe　that　here　he　seems　to　imply　that　virtue　can　be　taught？



　　Men。　Clearly。



　　Soc。　But　in　some　other　verses　he　shifts　about　and　says：







　　If　understanding　could　be　created　and　put　into　a　man；　then　they　＇who



were　able　to　perform　this　feat＇　would　have　obtained　great　rewards。







And　again：…







　　Never　would　a　bad　son　have　sprung　from　a　good　sire；　for　he　would



have　heard　the　voice　of　instruction；　but　not　by　teaching　will　you　ever



make　a　bad　man　into　a　good　one。







And　this；　as　you　may　remark；　is　a　contradiction　of　the　other。



　　Men。　Clearly。



　　Soc。　And　is　there　anything　else　of　which　the　professors　are　affirmed



not　only　not　to　be　teachers　of　others；　but　to　be　ignorant



themselves；　and　bad　at　the　knowledge　of　that　which　they　are　professing



to　teach？　or　is　there　anything　about　which　even　the　acknowledged



〃gentlemen〃　are　sometimes　saying　that　〃this　thing　can　be　taught；〃



and　sometimes　the　opposite？　Can　you　say　that　they　are　teachers　in



any　true　sense　whose　ideas　are　in　such　confusion？



　　Men。　I　should　say；　certainly　not。



　　Soc。　But　if　neither　the　Sophists　nor　the　gentlemen　are　teachers；



clearly　there　can　be　no　other　teachers？



　　Men。　No。



　　Soc。　And　if　there　are　no　tea