alcibiades ii- 第3部分

you　think　that　he　would　ever　have　laid　hands　upon　her？



ALCIBIADES：　　No。



SOCRATES：　　He　did　not　intend　to　slay　the　first　woman　he　came　across；　nor

any　one　else's　mother；　but　only　his　own？



ALCIBIADES：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　Ignorance；　then；　is　better　for　those　who　are　in　such　a　frame　of

mind；　and　have　such　ideas？



ALCIBIADES：　　Obviously。



SOCRATES：　　You　acknowledge　that　for　some　persons　in　certain　cases　the

ignorance　of　some　things　is　a　good　and　not　an　evil；　as　you　formerly

supposed？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　do。



SOCRATES：　　And　there　is　still　another　case　which　will　also　perhaps　appear

strange　to　you；　if　you　will　consider　it？　　（The　reading　is　here　uncertain。）



ALCIBIADES：　　What　is　that；　Socrates？



SOCRATES：　　It　may　be；　in　short；　that　the　possession　of　all　the　sciences；　if

unaccompanied　by　the　knowledge　of　the　best；　will　more　often　than　not　injure

the　possessor。　　Consider　the　matter　thus：Must　we　not；　when　we　intend

either　to　do　or　say　anything；　suppose　that　we　know　or　ought　to　know　that

which　we　propose　so　confidently　to　do　or　say？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes；　in　my　opinion。



SOCRATES：　　We　may　take　the　orators　for　an　example；　who　from　time　to　time

advise　us　about　war　and　peace；　or　the　building　of　walls　and　the

construction　of　harbours；　whether　they　understand　the　business　in　hand；　or

only　think　that　they　do。　　Whatever　the　city；　in　a　word；　does　to　another

city；　or　in　the　management　of　her　own　affairs；　all　happens　by　the　counsel

of　the　orators。



ALCIBIADES：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　But　now　see　what　follows；　if　I　can　（make　it　clear　to　you）。　

（Some　words　appear　to　have　dropped　out　here。）　　You　would　distinguish　the

wise　from　the　foolish？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　The　many　are　foolish；　the　few　wise？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　And　you　use　both　the　terms；　'wise'　and　'foolish；'　in　reference

to　something？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　do。



SOCRATES：　　Would　you　call　a　person　wise　who　can　give　advice；　but　does　not

know　whether　or　when　it　is　better　to　carry　out　the　advice？



ALCIBIADES：　　Decidedly　not。



SOCRATES：　　Nor　again；　I　suppose；　a　person　who　knows　the　art　of　war；　but

does　not　know　whether　it　is　better　to　go　to　war　or　for　how　long？



ALCIBIADES：　　No。



SOCRATES：　　Nor；　once　more；　a　person　who　knows　how　to　kill　another　or　to

take　away　his　property　or　to　drive　him　from　his　native　land；　but　not　when

it　is　better　to　do　so　or　for　whom　it　is　better？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly　not。



SOCRATES：　　But　he　who　understands　anything　of　the　kind　and　has　at　the　same

time　the　knowledge　of　the　best　course　of　action：and　the　best　and　the

useful　are　surely　the　same？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：Such　an　one；　I　say；　we　should　call　wise　and　a　useful　adviser

both　of　himself　and　of　the　city。　　What　do　you　think？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　agree。



SOCRATES：　　And　if　any　one　knows　how　to　ride　or　to　shoot　with　the　bow　or　to

box　or　to　wrestle；　or　to　engage　in　any　other　sort　of　contest　or　to　do

anything　whatever　which　is　in　the　nature　of　an　art；what　do　you　call　him

who　knows　what　is　best　according　to　that　art？　　Do　you　not　speak　of　one　who

knows　what　is　best　in　riding　as　a　good　rider？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　in　a　similar　way　you　speak　of　a　good　boxer　or　a　good　flute…

player　or　a　good　performer　in　any　other　art？



ALCIBIADES：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　But　is　it　necessary　that　the　man　who　is　clever　in　any　of　these

arts　should　be　wise　also　in　general？　　Or　is　there　a　difference　between　the

clever　artist　and　the　wise　man？



ALCIBIADES：　　All　the　difference　in　the　world。



SOCRATES：　　And　what　sort　of　a　state　do　you　think　that　would　be　which　was

composed　of　good　archers　and　flute…players　and　athletes　and　masters　in

other　arts；　and　besides　them　of　those　others　about　whom　we　spoke；　who　knew

how　to　go　to　war　and　how　to　kill；　as　well　as　of　orators　puffed　up　with

political　pride；　but　in　which　not　one　of　them　all　had　this　knowledge　of　the

best；　and　there　was　no　one　who　could　tell　when　it　was　better　to　apply　any

of　these　arts　or　in　regard　to　whom？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　should　call　such　a　state　bad；　Socrates。



SOCRATES：　　You　certainly　would　when　you　saw　each　of　them　rivalling　the

other　and　esteeming　that　of　the　greatest　importance　in　the　state；



'Wherein　he　himself　most　excelled。'　　（Euripides；　Antiope。）



I　mean　that　which　was　best　in　any　art；　while　he　was　entirely　ignorant　of

what　was　best　for　himself　and　for　the　state；　because；　as　I　think；　he　trusts

to　opinion　which　is　devoid　of　intelligence。　　In　such　a　case　should　we　not

be　right　if　we　said　that　the　state　would　be　full　of　anarchy　and

lawlessness？



ALCIBIADES：　　Decidedly。



SOCRATES：　　But　ought　we　not　then；　think　you；　either　to　fancy　that　we　know

or　really　to　know；　what　we　confidently　propose　to　do　or　say？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　if　a　person　does　that　which　he　knows　or　supposes　that　he

knows；　and　the　result　is　beneficial；　he　will　act　advantageously　both　for

himself　and　for　the　state？



ALCIBIADES：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　And　if　he　do　the　contrary；　both　he　and　the　state　will　suffer？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　Well；　and　are　you　of　the　same　mind；　as　before？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　am。



SOCRATES：　　But　were　you　not　saying　that　you　would　call　the　many　unwise　and

the　few　wise？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　was。



SOCRATES：　　And　have　we　not　come　back　to　our　old　assertion　that　the　many

fail　to　obtain　the　best　because　they　trust　to　opinion　which　is　devoid　of

intelligence？



ALCIBIADES：　　That　is　the　case。



SOCRATES：　　It　is　good；　then；　for　the　many；　if　they　particularly　desire　to

do　that　which　they　know　or　suppose　that　they　know；　neither　to　know　nor　to

suppose　that　they　know；　in　cases　where　if　they　carry　out　their　ideas　in

action　they　will　be　losers　rather　than　gainers？



ALCIBIADES：　　What　you　say　is　very　true。



SOCRATES：　　Do　you　not　see　that　I　was　really　speaking　the　truth　when　I

affirmed　that　the　possession　of　any　other　kind　of　knowledge　was　more　likely

to　injure　than　to　benefit　the　possessor；　unless　he　had　also　the　knowledge

of　the　best？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　do　now；　if　I　did　not　before；　Socrates。



SOCRATES：　　The　state　or　the　soul；　therefore；　which　wishes　to　have　a　right

existence　must　hold　firmly　to　this　knowledge；　just　as　the　sick　man　clings

to　the　physician；　or　the　passenger　depends　for　safety　on　the　pilot。　　And　if

the　soul　does　not　set　sail　until　she　have　obtained　this　she　will　be　all　the

safer　in　the　voyage　through　life。　　But　when　she　rushes　in　pursuit　of　wealth

or　bodily　strength　or　anything　else；　not　having　the　knowledge　of　the　best；

so　much　the　more　is　she　likely　to　meet　with　misfortune。　　And　he　who　has　the

love　of　learning　（Or；　reading　polumatheian；　'abundant　learning。'）；　and　is

skilful　in　many　arts；　and　does　not　possess　the　knowledge　of　the　best；　but

is　under　some　other　guidance；　will　make；　as　he　deserves；　a　sorry　voyage：

he　will；　I　believe；　hurry　through　the　brief　space　of　human　life；　pilotless

in　mid…ocean；　and　the　words　will　apply　to　him　in　which　the　poet　blamed　his

enemy：



'。。。Full　many　a　thing　he　knew；

But　knew　them　all　badly。'　　（A　fragment　from　the　pseudo…Homeric　poem；

'Margites。'）



ALCIBIADES：　　How　in　the　world；　Socrates；　do　the　words　of　the　poet　apply　to

him？　　They　seem　to　me　to　have　no　bearing　on　the　point　whatever。



SOCRATES：　　Quite　the　contrary；　my　sweet　friend：　　only　the　poet　is　talking

in　riddles　after　the　fashion　of　his　tribe。　　For　all　poetry　has　by　nature　an

enigmatical　character；　and　it　is　by　no　means　everybody　who　can　interpret

it。　　And　if；　moreover；　the　spirit　of　poetry　happen　to　seize　on　a　man　who　is

of　a　begrudging　temper　and　does　not　care　to　manifest　his　wisdom　but　keeps

it　to　himself　as　far　as　he　can；　it　does　indeed　require　an　almost　superhuman

wisdom　to　discover　what　the　poet　would　be　at。　　You　surely　do　not　suppose

that　Homer；　the　wisest　and　most　divine　of　poets；　was　unaware　of　the

impossibility　of　knowing　a　thing　badly：　　for　it　was　no　less　a　person　than

he　who　said　of　Margites　that　'he　knew　many　things；　but　knew　them　all

badly。'　　The　solution　of　the　riddle　is　this；　I　imagine：By　'badly'　Homer

meant　'bad'　and　'knew'　stands　for　'to　know。'　　Put　the　words　together；the

metre　will　suffer；　but　the　poet's　meaning　is　clear；'Margites　knew　all

these　things；　but　it　was　bad　for　him　to　know　them。'　　And；　obviously；　if　it

was　bad　for　him　to　know　so　many　things；　he　must　have　been　a　good…for…

nothing；　unless　the　argument　has　played　us　false。



ALCIBIADES：　　But　I　do　not　think　that　it　has；　Socrates：　　at　least；　if　the

argument　is　fallacious；　it　would　be　difficult　for　me　to　find　another　which

I　could　trust。



SOCRATES：　　And　you　are　right　in　thinking　so。



ALCIBIADES：　　Well；　that　is　my　opinion。



SOCRATES：　　But　tell　me；　by　Heaven：you　must　see　now　the　nature　and

greatness　of　the　difficulty　in　which　you；　like　others；　have　your　part。　　For

you　change　about　in　all　directions；　and　ne