alcibiades i- 第5部分

I　want　to　know　what　you　call　the　other。



ALCIBIADES：　　I　do　not　understand　you。



SOCRATES：　　Then　try　to　do　as　I　do；　for　the　answer　which　I　gave　is

universally　right；　and　when　I　say　right；　I　mean　according　to　rule。



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　was　not　the　art　of　which　I　spoke　gymnastic？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　And　I　called　the　excellence　in　wrestling　gymnastic？



ALCIBIADES：　　You　did。



SOCRATES：　　And　I　was　right？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　think　that　you　were。



SOCRATES：　　Well；　now；for　you　should　learn　to　argue　prettilylet　me　ask

you　in　return　to　tell　me；　first；　what　is　that　art　of　which　playing　and

singing；　and　stepping　properly　in　the　dance；　are　parts；what　is　the　name

of　the　whole？　　I　think　that　by　this　time　you　must　be　able　to　tell。



ALCIBIADES：　　Indeed　I　cannot。



SOCRATES：　　Then　let　me　put　the　matter　in　another　way：　　what　do　you　call　the

Goddesses　who　are　the　patronesses　of　art？



ALCIBIADES：　　The　Muses　do　you　mean；　Socrates？



SOCRATES：　　Yes；　I　do；　and　what　is　the　name　of　the　art　which　is　called　after

them？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　suppose　that　you　mean　music。



SOCRATES：　　Yes；　that　is　my　meaning；　and　what　is　the　excellence　of　the　art

of　music；　as　I　told　you　truly　that　the　excellence　of　wrestling　was

gymnasticwhat　is　the　excellence　of　musicto　be　what？



ALCIBIADES：　　To　be　musical；　I　suppose。



SOCRATES：　　Very　good；　and　now　please　to　tell　me　what　is　the　excellence　of

war　and　peace；　as　the　more　musical　was　the　more　excellent；　or　the　more

gymnastical　was　the　more　excellent；　tell　me；　what　name　do　you　give　to　the

more　excellent　in　war　and　peace？



ALCIBIADES：　　But　I　really　cannot　tell　you。



SOCRATES：　　But　if　you　were　offering　advice　to　another　and　said　to　himThis

food　is　better　than　that；　at　this　time　and　in　this　quantity；　and　he　said　to

youWhat　do　you　mean；　Alcibiades；　by　the　word　'better'？　you　would　have　no

difficulty　in　replying　that　you　meant　'more　wholesome；'　although　you　do　not

profess　to　be　a　physician：　　and　when　the　subject　is　one　of　which　you

profess　to　have　knowledge；　and　about　which　you　are　ready　to　get　up　and

advise　as　if　you　knew；　are　you　not　ashamed；　when　you　are　asked；　not　to　be

able　to　answer　the　question？　　Is　it　not　disgraceful？



ALCIBIADES：　　Very。



SOCRATES：　　Well；　then；　consider　and　try　to　explain　what　is　the　meaning　of

'better；'　in　the　matter　of　making　peace　and　going　to　war　with　those　against

whom　you　ought　to　go　to　war？　　To　what　does　the　word　refer？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　am　thinking；　and　I　cannot　tell。



SOCRATES：　　But　you　surely　know　what　are　the　charges　which　we　bring　against

one　another；　when　we　arrive　at　the　point　of　making　war；　and　what　name　we

give　them？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes；　certainly；　we　say　that　deceit　or　violence　has　been

employed；　or　that　we　have　been　defrauded。



SOCRATES：　　And　how　does　this　happen？　　Will　you　tell　me　how？　　For　there　may

be　a　difference　in　the　manner。



ALCIBIADES：　　Do　you　mean　by　'how；'　Socrates；　whether　we　suffered　these

things　justly　or　unjustly？



SOCRATES：　　Exactly。



ALCIBIADES：　　There　can　be　no　greater　difference　than　between　just　and

unjust。



SOCRATES：　　And　would　you　advise　the　Athenians　to　go　to　war　with　the　just　or

with　the　unjust？



ALCIBIADES：　　That　is　an　awkward　question；　for　certainly；　even　if　a　person

did　intend　to　go　to　war　with　the　just；　he　would　not　admit　that　they　were

just。



SOCRATES：　　He　would　not　go　to　war；　because　it　would　be　unlawful？



ALCIBIADES：　　Neither　lawful　nor　honourable。



SOCRATES：　　Then　you；　too；　would　address　them　on　principles　of　justice？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　What；　then；　is　justice　but　that　better；　of　which　I　spoke；　in

going　to　war　or　not　going　to　war　with　those　against　whom　we　ought　or　ought

not；　and　when　we　ought　or　ought　not　to　go　to　war？



ALCIBIADES：　　Clearly。



SOCRATES：　　But　how　is　this；　friend　Alcibiades？　　Have　you　forgotten　that　you

do　not　know　this；　or　have　you　been　to　the　schoolmaster　without　my

knowledge；　and　has　he　taught　you　to　discern　the　just　from　the　unjust？　　Who

is　he？　　I　wish　you　would　tell　me；　that　I　may　go　and　learn　of　himyou　shall

introduce　me。



ALCIBIADES：　　You　are　mocking；　Socrates。



SOCRATES：　　No；　indeed；　I　most　solemnly　declare　to　you　by　Zeus；　who　is　the

God　of　our　common　friendship；　and　whom　I　never　will　forswear；　that　I　am

not；　tell　me；　then；　who　this　instructor　is；　if　he　exists。



ALCIBIADES：　　But；　perhaps；　he　does　not　exist；　may　I　not　have　acquired　the

knowledge　of　just　and　unjust　in　some　other　way？



SOCRATES：　　Yes；　if　you　have　discovered　them。



ALCIBIADES：　　But　do　you　not　think　that　I　could　discover　them？



SOCRATES：　　I　am　sure　that　you　might；　if　you　enquired　about　them。



ALCIBIADES：　　And　do　you　not　think　that　I　would　enquire？



SOCRATES：　　Yes；　if　you　thought　that　you　did　not　know　them。



ALCIBIADES：　　And　was　there　not　a　time　when　I　did　so　think？



SOCRATES：　　Very　good；　and　can　you　tell　me　how　long　it　is　since　you　thought

that　you　did　not　know　the　nature　of　the　just　and　the　unjust？　　What　do　you

say　to　a　year　ago？　　Were　you　then　in　a　state　of　conscious　ignorance　and

enquiry？　　Or　did　you　think　that　you　knew？　　And　please　to　answer　truly；　that

our　discussion　may　not　be　in　vain。



ALCIBIADES：　　Well；　I　thought　that　I　knew。



SOCRATES：　　And　two　years　ago；　and　three　years　ago；　and　four　years　ago；　you

knew　all　the　same？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　did。



SOCRATES：　　And　more　than　four　years　ago　you　were　a　childwere　you　not？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　then　I　am　quite　sure　that　you　thought　you　knew。



ALCIBIADES：　　Why　are　you　so　sure？



SOCRATES：　　Because　I　often　heard　you　when　a　child；　in　your　teacher's　house；

or　elsewhere；　playing　at　dice　or　some　other　game　with　the　boys；　not

hesitating　at　all　about　the　nature　of　the　just　and　unjust；　but　very

confidentcrying　and　shouting　that　one　of　the　boys　was　a　rogue　and　a

cheat；　and　had　been　cheating。　　Is　it　not　true？



ALCIBIADES：　　But　what　was　I　to　do；　Socrates；　when　anybody　cheated　me？



SOCRATES：　　And　how　can　you　say；　'What　was　I　to　do'？　if　at　the　time　you　did

not　know　whether　you　were　wronged　or　not？



ALCIBIADES：　　To　be　sure　I　knew；　I　was　quite　aware　that　I　was　being　cheated。



SOCRATES：　　Then　you　suppose　yourself　even　when　a　child　to　have　known　the

nature　of　just　and　unjust？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly；　and　I　did　know　then。



SOCRATES：　　And　when　did　you　discover　themnot；　surely；　at　the　time　when

you　thought　that　you　knew　them？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly　not。



SOCRATES：　　And　when　did　you　think　that　you　were　ignorantif　you　consider；

you　will　find　that　there　never　was　such　a　time？



ALCIBIADES：　　Really；　Socrates；　I　cannot　say。



SOCRATES：　　Then　you　did　not　learn　them　by　discovering　them？



ALCIBIADES：　　Clearly　not。



SOCRATES：　　But　just　before　you　said　that　you　did　not　know　them　by　learning；

now；　if　you　have　neither　discovered　nor　learned　them；　how　and　whence　do　you

come　to　know　them？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　suppose　that　I　was　mistaken　in　saying　that　I　knew　them

through　my　own　discovery　of　them；　whereas；　in　truth；　I　learned　them　in　the

same　way　that　other　people　learn。



SOCRATES：　　So　you　said　before；　and　I　must　again　ask；　of　whom？　　Do　tell　me。



ALCIBIADES：　　Of　the　many。



SOCRATES：　　Do　you　take　refuge　in　them？　　I　cannot　say　much　for　your

teachers。



ALCIBIADES：　　Why；　are　they　not　able　to　teach？



SOCRATES：　　They　could　not　teach　you　how　to　play　at　draughts；　which　you

would　acknowledge　（would　you　not）　to　be　a　much　smaller　matter　than　justice？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　can　they　teach　the　better　who　are　unable　to　teach　the　worse？



ALCIBIADES：　　I　think　that　they　can；　at　any　rate；　they　can　teach　many　far

better　things　than　to　play　at　draughts。



SOCRATES：　　What　things？



ALCIBIADES：　　Why；　for　example；　I　learned　to　speak　Greek　of　them；　and　I

cannot　say　who　was　my　teacher；　or　to　whom　I　am　to　attribute　my　knowledge　of

Greek；　if　not　to　those　good…for…nothing　teachers；　as　you　call　them。



SOCRATES：　　Why；　yes；　my　friend；　and　the　many　are　good　enough　teachers　of

Greek；　and　some　of　their　instructions　in　that　line　may　be　justly　praised。



ALCIBIADES：　　Why　is　that？



SOCRATES：　　Why；　because　they　have　the　qualities　which　good　teachers　ought

to　have。



ALCIBIADES：　　What　qualities？



SOCRATES：　　Why；　you　know　that　knowledge　is　the　first　qualification　of　any

teacher？



ALCIBIADES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　And　if　they　know；　they　must　agree　together　and　not　differ？



ALCIBIADES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　would　you　say　that　they　knew　the　things　about　which　they

differ？



ALCIBIADES：　　No。



SOCRATES：　　Then　how　can　they　teach　them？



ALCIBIADES：　　They　cannot。



SOCRATES：　　Well；　but　do　you　imagine　that　the　many　would　differ　about　the

nature　of　wood　and　stone？　are　they　not　agreed　if　you　ask　them　what　they

are？　and　do　they　not　run　to　fetch　the